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Carnal Codex

Discussion in 'General Carnal Souls Discussion' started by Benji, Aug 5, 2016.

  1. Atomicbob

    Atomicbob Well-Known Member Member

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    Unless they're filled with air, or magic is involved, I imagine that trying to fly with large breasts would be quite difficult.


    ...You know, I just had a thought: breastfeeding a baby with a beak is probably very, very painful.
     
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  2. BlackAion

    BlackAion Member Member

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    What does the meaning "trust-fund kids of evolution mean?"
     
  3. Dolfuss

    Dolfuss Well-Known Member Member

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    You despise me, don't you?
     
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  4. GreenSleeves

    GreenSleeves Well-Known Member Member

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    It is a little curious that the Avien don't seem to mind their human characteristics like the Repten do since they're so closely related. Though since the Avien society is shaped by their sexual dimorphism, maybe breasts and external genitalia were taken in stride as just one more difference.

    Heck, given that a male Avien's entire point is showing off what he's got, they may actually welcome having bits flopping around between their legs, rather than a featureless cloaca. Even at the more tasteful Avien showboy establishments where such things remain covered, external parts are easier to hint at, making for more titillating shows. From there, it's not too difficult to imagine females seeing these more human-affected males as choicer mates, leading to human-affected offspring. And males, in turn, show a preference for breasted females, since it means their own sons will likely have something to show off when he's old enough to take to the stage.

    Which could tie in well with @Passerby's second scenario from a few posts back. If a swathe of Avien managed to avoid getting the mammalian traits but are actively being out-competed for mates, that puts a time limit on the Repten who would seek to study them to find a way to remove their own hated characteristics. Ups the stakes a bit. Instead of diplomatically approaching their "cousins", they feel more drastic measures may be required (leading to the capture and experimentation scenarios).


    Even more curious, though, is that the Apien (further from humans than even the birds or lizards) also aren't mentioned as giving a hoot about whatever mammal bits they may have received. Why is it that out of three non-mammal races, only one seems to be bothered by receiving mammal parts?
     
  5. Passerby

    Passerby Well-Known Member Member

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    Non sequitur. First, when you already have a highly visible signal (in this case - feathers) - it makes no sense to add another, less visible signal. Second, Avien sexuality is not necessarily the same as human sexuality. Most Avien may look at "bits flopping around" with the same absence of enthusiasm as most humans look at hermaphroditic flatworm dick-fencing.
    And specifically this: humans have a pretty "featureless" skin, for example. It does not lead to universal sexual preference for extensive scarification, piercings and other ways to add "features" to said skin.
    Unless I am missing something, there are no information in The Codex about extent and prevalence of human traits among Avien population. They may not mind much because they do not have much.
    Again: flight impairment. It is like human male choosing female for hips, which impair her ability to walk.

    On a more general note, I find it jarring that games in this genre, despite all the different forms available for characters within them, always seem to default to human sexuality and associated traits (even when this makes absolutely no sense). It really does not have to default to "bits flopping around" and "preference for breasted females".
     
  6. Atomicbob

    Atomicbob Well-Known Member Member

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    I'm going to go out on a limb here, and assume that the Apien use their breasts for honey storage/production. Given that producing your own honey is better than doing the whole pollen and nectar thing that normal bees do, that's even more reason why they're probably totally fine with breasts. And if there's concern that the Apien shouldn't be able to fly with breasts, I direct you to this meme: [​IMG]
     
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  7. GreenSleeves

    GreenSleeves Well-Known Member Member

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    It might make no sense to slowly evolve another signal, but the second signal was added suddenly and magically so sense doesn't figure into that part. But since this new signal is there, well, Avien already subscribe to the when you got it, flaunt it way of thinking...

    Humans haven't suddenly been combined with a species that does value exciting dermal features, so there isn't even a point to be made here.

    Not in the codex, no. But in the update with the artwork of the Avien mage Benji said:
    "Big-titted Aviens can fly, but on average they probably have smaller boobs than other races because it makes more sense for them to be light and streamlined."

    I forgot that human males absolutely have never found wide hips to be attractive on human females.
    And besides that, Benji has already stated (in the same post as above):
    "The breasts didn't evolve there, they were put there by magic, so that's about as much sense as they need to make. The magic involved has its own mysteries I want to go into in the game. There'll probably be a threshold where your tits or bits prevent you from flying - just like there's one that prevents you from walking - but we've not looked at it yet. It'll be carefully calibrated to allow for fun without seeming too silly - like most things."

    It really is so gosh-darned strange that human porn games made by humans and for humans defaults to human sexuality. It wouldn't be at all alienating to limit Avien sex scenes to a brief mention of a two second cloacal interaction. That'll really bring in the players.
    (This section was written entirely in the human tone known as sarcasm.)
     
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  8. Passerby

    Passerby Well-Known Member Member

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    It still does figure into that part. Such signalling would be like Landing Signal Officer suddenly thinking "oh wow, I have shiny uniform, let's wiggle those hips in addition to waving those paddles". At best it is pointless, at worst it is confusing.
    And where exactly did you get that? The Codex tells quite a different tale: Avien are aware of and care about ("to the point of obsessiveness") patterns. Their approach is holistic ("does this belong here?") not eclectic ("whatever goes - goes"). And taking a pattern and adding details that do not belong to this pattern disrupts said pattern.

    And in case of mating patterns are of utmost importance for birds. In real life, for example, black storks and white storks do not interbreed exactly because they have different behavioural patterns (during mating season) to the point that they do not even see each other as potential mates.
    There is since Avien haven't suddenly been combined with a species that does value additional bodyparts (biphallism is generally not an appreciated trait among humans).
    Smaller than other races. Presumably those "other races" include Repten as well. So again: they care less because they suffer less.
    And also there is a difference between "being able to fly" and "being a good flier" just like there are difference between "being able to swim" and "being a good swimmer".
    Universally? And wide to the point of interfering with walking?
    Magic may have put breasts there, but it did not make everyone love those breasts. We are talking not merely about the trait itself, but about Avien attitude towards this trait.
    "By humans" and "for humans", but not "about humans". By your logic no fantasy species can ever exist, because "humans are doomed to default to humans".
    Yeah, right, better yet - let's default all species to effectively humans in fursuits. This would totally not alienate anyone (after all, on one, absolutely no one would ever turn to game with non-humans while searching for something different than human) and bring players in troves since it was not already done to death (by totally not lazy, complacent or thoughtless authors) before.
     
  9. GreenSleeves

    GreenSleeves Well-Known Member Member

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    You're overcomplicating things. You should try to remember that this is a game we're talking about.
    And in games of this type, gating content (especially, say, an entire species-worth of sex content) behind a specific transformation does not go over well with players.

    The way you're trying to lay things out, in order for a player to seduce that Avien lass they've got their eye on, they'd have to transform entirely into her specific species and then learn her species' mating rituals, maybe through some sidequest.
    And then repeat that if they want to get with an Avien of a different species.
    I'm comfortable going out on a limb and saying things likely won't be that way. That would be acceptable for a romance quest about getting in with a highly particular Avien governor, say, but not the entire race.

    In light of that, it seems to me that the preening the males spend all their time doing, the dances, the burlesque shows, are a cultural thing inspired by the mating dances of their mother-kin and combined with a healthy does of that good ol' human sexuality we all love. Finding a mate is not dependent on performing the dance strictly in one specific way per species, it's a more general showing off. Maybe they'll prefer the dances of their people, but hey, that Lapen bard cutting a rug over there might be worth a second glance after all.

    And yeah, I feel the Avien finding their mammal bits to be A-OK as another signal is a good idea. I mean, we already have the Repten whinging about having tits (even though canonically they're not as big a burden as the lizards are making them out to be) and another race feeling the same way—how did you put it?—"makes little sense from narrative standpoint."

    It's a balancing act. Wide hips make walking more difficult, narrow ones make childbirth more difficult.
    A comparable tradeoff would be at play in the Avien.

    Besides, I never said they'd select for massive hooters. You're the one who putting this all-or-nothing idea out there. I just said that they might select for the mere presence of breasts. Boven already fill the busty niche (and Equen the hung), no need to double down.

    There you go again with your extremes...
    Fact is, porn's gotta be relatable on some level. You simply can't stray too far from human sexuality and have it still be porn. Luckily, human sexuality is a broad pool to play with so a clever writers won't run out of material in it.
     
  10. Passerby

    Passerby Well-Known Member Member

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    And you are oversimplifying things. Tetris is a great game - it does not mean that every great game should be Tetris.
    And no one is proposing this. But there are other, more interesting ways to handle it.
    And that's wonderful. Haven't it been said by me and others time and time again that in TF-centric game PC's current form should matter and it is silly that NPC, for one, always recognize you regardless of what form you change into and, for two, have absolutely no reaction to whatever form you are currently in.

    And is it not just the same for humans? You learn dancing (and/or whatever other courting methodology is appropriate for culture and class in question), you put on your suit and shoes and you dance your part. Here you do all the same, but Shadowless-style.

    And this just so nicely ties-in with system of remembering and recalling multiple forms (that "wereeverything whateverborn" thing).
    We have already passed an era where everyone is bi. You are proposing a world where everyone is xenophile. I would say that vast majority of any species are not xenophiles (why should they be?) and for some interspecies action you have several avenues to pursue:
    1) Brothel. Anything for your money, duh.
    2) Genuine xenophiles. Yes, there are such people, just not everyone is such one.
    3) Non-consent: everything is within your power, duh.
    4) Mind domination: when they are not actually xenophiles, but for you - they are.
    Grilled fish is delicious. Birthday cake is delicious. Mashed together they are awful. If one thing is good as it is and another is good as it is - it does not mean that their combination will be good as well.
    And also our love for human sexuality is far from being unconditional.
    Humans enjoy peacock shows. It does not mean that they are sexually attracted to those peacocks or would like to grow similar feathers themselves (for the vast majority of cases, anyway).
    We already have plenty of species "finding their mammal bits to be A-OK" - you know, actually mammalian species: canen, boven, lapen and so on. Avien acting just like those mammalian species make even less sense narratively than avien acting like repten. I say, we have bumped our limit of titflesh (and its appreciation) with all those boven ambrosials, there is no need for more -_-
    I am speaking about wideness to the point well beyond any "easing childbirth".
    No, it would not. There are no function for human bits on Avien, so there are no reason for Avien to appreciate them. Those not even work as signals, let alone functional parts.
    Because this is how race to the bottom works -_-
    Because "they are not that harmful" and "you can flaunt them"? By the same logic you can argue for humans selecting for "the mere presence of" warts.
    When you roll initiative for a snark combat - be ready for some counter-battery fire :)
    The fact is - you can. Nothing is stopping you. And it is not like there are no place for human porn in the game - after all, most populous sentient species in the world of Luud are humans for all that we know. But defaulting every other species to acting like a human with a hat - this is such a waste.

    Remember: 'morphs of Luud are basically anthropomorphised animals (or, more specifically - warbeasts) - not metamorphised humans.
    Pool? Compared to everything Nature has come up with over four billion years? Not even a puddle =)
     
  11. Passerby

    Passerby Well-Known Member Member

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    This gives me a further idea. Why not have both?

    Suppose that Avien population is comparatively large. And suppose that the level of mammalian feature appreciation/aversion by individual avien is directly proportional to the level of mammalian features present/absent in said individual avien. This would lead to eventual emergence of two sub-genera: one is more earth-bound and human-like but still mostly capable of limited flight, tough using walking as the main form of locomotion; the other - far more bird-like, mostly lacking human features, and sky-bound: capable of limited walking (or hopping - depending on species) using flying as the main form of locomotion.

    Such difference in the main form of locomotion would naturally lead to differences in preferred architectural features of Avien dwellings for different sub-genera, which in turn would lead to spatial and then - social encapsulation and isolation of those two sub-genera. This would lead to an eventual creation of separate settlement of those sub-genera and racial tension in settlements where they historically live together (yes, racial tensions always crop up among similar creatures: after all, humans do not racially discriminate against monkeys - they discriminate against other humans).

    And when Repten would start to kidnap sky-bound sub-genus for their experiments - it would add more fuel to a fire, as they would probably mask this as some earth-bound sub-genus doing - a false-flag operations that other sub-genus would be all too eager to believe due to pre-existing tensions.

    And here you have it: two good things staying good by staying separated ^_^
     
  12. Passerby

    Passerby Well-Known Member Member

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    But all that aside - I wonder about those Shadowless:
    1) Are they ageless and immortal (due to their ability to manifest new bodyparts)?
    2) When was the first occurrence of such Shadowless recorded?
    3) Do only their bodies cast no shadow? Can this be trivially hidden by full-body armour or clothing?
     
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  13. Benji

    Benji Director Staff Artist Writer

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    I'll try to answer these in the next update to the codex.
     
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  14. daedaddy

    daedaddy Well-Known Member Member

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    hi guys
     
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  15. NizzJipple

    NizzJipple Well-Known Member Member

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    Took a glance at the Codex again, specifically the recently added Gods/Goddess section. In short, I love what you've come up with. The names, for one, are easy to pronounce. So many usual have about eight syllables and result in a tongue twister of bullshite.

    Ofuk, the god of the dead, is my favorite. He is described as a figure swathed in darkened robes, with only a ram skull visible. If he did appear before a mortal, the first words out of my own mouth would probably be similar to his name, if you catch my meaning. Please tell me that name was intentional. :p
     
  16. daedaddy

    daedaddy Well-Known Member Member

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    @Benji
    bimbos 4 carnal souls??


    P.S
    someday i feel like we should make a mass suggestion thread since theres a lot of recommendations and cool stuff in threads like these.
     
  17. Atomicbob

    Atomicbob Well-Known Member Member

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    I thought the Codex thread kind of was a place to suggest stuff and/or brainstorm?
     
  18. Benji

    Benji Director Staff Artist Writer

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    Sure is. I think it'd make more sense to centralise a suggestion thread once the project's properly on its legs. So, it'll happen.
     
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  19. Benji

    Benji Director Staff Artist Writer

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    Updated the Codex today:
    • Formatting fixes.
    • New Apien information.
    • New Vulpen information.
    • Answered some questions on the Unshadowed.
    • Added some missing leader and hometown names.
     
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  20. Passerby

    Passerby Well-Known Member Member

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    That's great. But some things are strange:
    - They may be around not for long, but have anyone tried to kill one of them? Do the Unshadowed have regeneration abilities?

    - There are those among the Unshadowed that appear young or old, but does this actually corresponds to their biological age? And what does biological age even mean for such shape-shifters? If, say, you have a body of an old 30-something goblin (and say goblins are getting old at 30) and you morph into human - would that be an old human or a 30-something not-so-old human? And in reverse: if you are 60-something human - would you immediately turn to dust once you turn into goblin (that does not even live for that long)?

    And if you are somewhere half-way? Would your parts from more long-living species look younger than parts form shorter-living species?
    It may be that modern Shadowless look old simply because they think that they should be looking old and their thoughts shape their bodies accordingly.

    Also, on the subject of mortality: what about their susceptibility to illnesses? Are they immune? Do they suffer only from those specific to the species of their current set of bodyparts? Do they suffer from any Shadowless-specific illnesses?

    - The Unshadowed and shadows: ok, it cannot be circumvented by the usual clothing, but what is the extent of this "losing shadows" process? If, say, some ordinary creature would tightly embrace an Unshadowed - would her shadow disappear too? And if not - could this "shadowlessness" be circumvented by donning "living" artifacts?

    Also, is there any illusion magic that allow to create illusory shadows, so that the Shadowless can pretend to be an ordinary being?

    - Capable warriors, fighters and adventurers.

    True. But but such shape-shifters should be even more capable infiltrators, assassins and spies. So capable, in fact, that this is not widely known :D

    The question is: can a Shadowless impersonate other being via transformation? Shapeshifters from D&D could do that, shapeshifters from Dragon Age (according to Morrigan) - couldn't.

    Also, is there any special abilities that Shadowless can use specifically on and against each other? Maybe they are especially effective at subduing each other? If so - an obvious bounty source specifically for a Shadowless would be subduing and chasing away (let's be real - basic town prison cannot hope to hold a shape-shifter for longer than it takes him to wake up, stretch, yawn and care enough to walk out) another Shadowless.

    Again, on the other hand: how can someone even tell two Shadowless apart? Can they impersonate each other?
     

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